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[Shorts]

From the UK is a twin hydraulic lever setup.  I'm considering this should I go to a hydraulic clutch bike.  It isn't cheap though, about $1495 before shipping.  But each lever is fully adjustable, both for reach and pull.  The master cylinders are the same size.





Click the link for info.  There's a pdf in there with more pictures.

http://www.venhill.co.uk/Controls/MOTORCYCLE_CONTROLS/NEPTUNE/NEP2B_NEPTUNE_TWIN_M-CYLINDER_-_BLACK_ANODISED.html

[Don]

That look pretty cool. I like the staggered handles.  Due to the physics of a sidecar rig, you need to be able to operate rear and front brakes separately.  This looks like a solution for my frozen right ankle that does not allow me to efficiently operate a right foot brake lever.  I will seriously consider this for my Honda project.

I had rejected the Klicktronic double lever due to its price.  Though this is only $500 cheaper, that is still significant.  One can only hope this will touch off a price war between the competing systems.

Don

[Shorts]

Yeah, I compared the prices too and came to same conclusion as you.  $500 is $500.

I'm all about a price war.  I should contact Neptune and see if tey need a US Distributor/Rep

[Shorts]

Here's the first generation chrome levers on a trike:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dumfriesdick/sets/72157601887362966/


And black levers on a Hyabusa (trike) I believe

http://forum.disabledbiker.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=27287&highlight=#27287

[Desmo Demon]

It isn't cheap though, about $1495 before shipping. 

It's a shame that a lot of these specialty items are so expensive due to the lack of sales and the cost of R&D since a lot of their potential customers are usually on fixed income (Social Security - Disability). Their cost is more than a month of disability for my wife. Most people (especially if they are single) on disability would never even consider an item like this just because of the cost involved. I think the cost of specialty equipment is one reason why many disabled people never even consider a motorcycle, but opt for scooters, if they ride at all.

[Don]

Considering the fact that my second bike, a Hondamatic 750A, cost me $2,200, including the cost of a professional shop setting up the left hand controls, $1,500-$2000 for a set of control levers seems outrageous.  I have said as much to Gayle Dewitt.  I put over 25,000 miles on that Hondamatic, before I sold it for $750 to a friend (after removing the left hand controls for a different bike).  So then I spent less to ride that bike than either of the double levers cost.

That is one reason, I advocate finding a bike with an automatic transmission to set up for a disabled rider.  Used Honda and  Moto Guzzi automatics can be found for $1,500-$2,500 and are easy to set up.  A while ago, I posted a link to a Craigslist ad for a Hondamatic 750A with full bags and a fairing, that the owner was selling for $2,500 but no DRA member showed any interest.

I have checked out the Yamaha FJ1300AE and Aprilia Mana automatic clutch new bikes and believe they are each reasonably priced, for what they are.  If you have the bucks and need a Harley clone, check out the Ridley.
 
On a tight budget, I would look for a Hondamatic 750A.  If I had the cash, I would buy the Aprilia Mana.  If I was floating in cash I would check out the 2010 Yamaha hybrid or the CAN AM Spyder (Automatic).  Any of those bikes give a disabled rider great bang for the buck.

Don

[Shorts]

Don, while automatic bikes make it easy to control the stop n go, the size of these bikes is just out of the question for some riders.  I wouldn't ride those bikes if I had two hands and I'd certainly not ride those bikes with one. 

The tranny is the easy part, finding the rest of the bike that fits the needs of the rider are another.  If I wanted easy, I'd be riding a scooter.  But a scooter won't cut it.

[Don]

Shorts,

I believe the whole issue of motorcycle size comes from a common misunderstanding.  That is the belief that a smaller lighter bike is easier to control than a larger, heavier bike.  My first bike was a 1982 Hondamatic 450A.  After about a year, riding it, I went out on a limb and bought a much heavier 1977 Hondamatic 750A.

Once the controls were set up for me, the bike sat in the driveway for several weeks, while I asked myself why I had bought such a big heavy bike, considering how difficult I was finding it to handle the 450.  Finally, I got up the nerve to start up the 750 and ride it out to the street.  What I found was the 750 was a much better balanced bike than the 450.  It was easier to handle at all speeds, including parking lot speeds and at a stand still.

My next bike was the 1000cc MotoGuzzi.  It was heavier than either of the Hondas.  It had such a low center of mass that it became the first bike I could ride on gravel, or dirt, without fear of losing it.  One reason it had such a low center of mass was the fact that the previous owner (a short woman) had mounted short shocks on the back and had lowered the triple clamp about two inches down the fork tubes.  It took me a while to get over the feeling that I was practically sitting on the pavement.  At one time, I mounted longer shocks and raised the front back to the stock position.  I quickly realized I had lost stability and dropped it back down.  That is the green and black Guzzi shown elsewere in DRA.

Some riders say never to ride a bike you cannot pick up if it falls.  I have never owned a bike that I could pick up but I never got stuck without some one coming to help me, when I dropped my bike.

After several years on the bigger bike, I impulsively bought another Hondamatic 450A, only to discover that I was so used to the stability of my larger bikes that I found the 450 to be twitchy at any speed.  After about a month, I sold the 450.

Size doesn't necessarily make a bike stable.  After many years on a Suzuki GS 1000, Kristin bought a Triumph Trophy 1200.  After the third time she dropped it, we sold it and bought her the BMW 1100GS pictured below.  She says to not be fooled by its looks.  It is the most stable and easy to handle of any of the seven bikes she has owned, with her Honda Rebel 250 being the worse and the Trophy 1200 second worse.  She took the Washington State MC endorsement test on my Hondamatic 750A.  Though she owned two other bikes at the time and my bike had left hand controls, Kristin said the 750 was the easiest bike to slow ride of any we then owned.

The fact is you never know how stable and easy to ride a bike is until you ride it.  No one else can tell you what a bike will ride like for you but you.  That is one reason I have owned so many bikes over the years.  Like most disabled riders, I need to buy the bike, set it up and ride it, before I can judge how it will work for me.

As promised, here is Kristin with her 1999 BMW 1100GS.

Don

[Shorts]

Don, it's not about controlling the bike as is moves, but rather handling the bike at low speed/no speed.  It is not a misconception that I could maneuver my VTR250 but couldn't manhandle the Duc ST2.  One was a big bike, the other wasn't.  I'm sure I could ride a large bike just fine.

You're a taller guy, I'm a smaller woman.  The things you might be able to do with a bike I may not be able to do.  That's not misconception.  That's science.  That's fact.

Again, I'm not talking about riding, I'm talking about everything else in between the black top.

[Lisa and Mike]

I agree. Big bikes are stable on the freeway but they are a chore to ride around town. I guess it all depends on the size and strength of the rider. I see a lot of people selling their bikes on Craigs List because they bought one that was too tall and heavy. My wife Lisa has CP so we built a trike. It's nice not have to put my foot down every time we stop to hold up 700, 800 pounds of motorcycle and riders. That's a lot of work, we ride to have fun. Get the bike that fits your needs. Years ago I had a Honda 305 Scrambler. It was easy to handle around town, I could even go off road. It also handled good on the highway. It did 70mph with no problem. I don't believe that bigger is always better.   Mike

[Don]

Sometimes I wonder if I am wasting my time writing these long posts. 

I believe I clearly said bigger is not necessarily better. The point of the message was it is not how heavy a bike is but rather where the weight is carried that determines how it handles at low speeds, parking lot speeds and  when standing still.
My examples were to point out that a smaller bike like the Hondamatic 450A can be top heavy while a heavier bike, if it carries it's weight down low can be easier to handle at low speeds.  I bought the MotoGuzzi from a 100 lb woman who handled it just fine due to how the bike carried it's weight. 

My Ninjamatic, like all sport bikes, carried its weight higher and Kristin refused to ride it.  Sport bikes and sport tourers like the Ducati ST2 are built with a high center of mass because it makes it easier to initiate a high speed turn if the weight is carried high.  The Motoguzzi was never a knee dragger but it was the most stable at low speeds of any bike I ever owned.  It was also the easiest to pick up off it's side stand, due to it's low center of mass, even though it was the heaviest bike I ever owned.

If I have left the impression that I am a big strong man then that is a misimpression.  Though I have put on a few pounds (not muscle) in the last few years, most of my adult life, I have weighed between, 120 lbs and 140 lbs.  At HS graduation, I weighed 109 lbs.  With one leg 2" shorter than the other, with no functioning right ankle, no functioning right wrist, life long scoliosis in my back, less than 10 lbs of grip strength in my right hand and the tendency to break easily, no one who knows me would call me a big strong guy.  My right leg is so weak and unstable that I cannot stand on my right foot with my left foot off the ground for more than a couple of seconds, before I fall.  So you see I speak from the point of view of a man who has less strength than a 105 lb woman.

If I look like a big tough guy in my pictures, that is just the leather talking.

Don

[Shorts]

<sigh>

never mind

[Don]

(sigh)  Why never mind?  I thought we were discussing the science and physics of motorcycling. The point I am trying to make is based on the scientific concept of leverage.  It is also based on personal experience that confirmed statements I read in MCN and other MC magazines in my early years of riding.

One test I run on any bike to determine how it will probably handle low speeds is to stand flat footed over the bike, barely touch the handlebar, press my left thigh into the seat and see how easily it comes off it's side stand.  The easier it comes up, the lower it's center of mass and the easier it will be to ride in a parking lot and almost anywhere at the posted speed limit.  If I need to strain to get the bike up, then I'm done and have no interest in that bike.

Of course, this is also a test of how easy it will be to ride at high speeds in the twistys.  That is to say, a heavy bike that easily lifts in that test will be a hand full in the twistys as it will not as easily initiate a high speed turn.

So, what I am saying is it depends on your intended use for the bike.  If you will be spending most of your time at low speeds, like me, then a heavy bike with a low center of mass will handle fine (as long as it does not have to much rake and trail *).  If a bike is both heavy and has a high center of mass, then my thigh lift test will show that and it will be difficult to ride at any speed and a real hazard at parking lot speeds.  Been there, got the scars and the broken collar bone.   

If you want to spend most of your time challanging the Dragon, then a high centered sport bike is best but then , as you say, you really need to avoid any bike that is to heavy for you to operate at low speeds also.

I am sorry if you think I am just blowing smoke on this issue, or if you think I do not understand the needs of someone who is physically challanged.  I have been just trying to share a bit of hard learned information that, upon reflection, fits with my book learning on the physics of leverage.  That's all I ever try to do on DRA, share the hard learned lessons that came slowly as I broke seven bones in four motorcycle accidents, during my first ten years of riding.  That and to help new riders avoid unnecessary expense and technological dead ends as they build their rides.

* But that's an issue for another time.  The Ridley was a B*&#! in a parking lot, due to it's geometry, even though it wasn't particularly heavy.  A heavy bike with the same rake and trail numbers would be impossible for me to ride, other than in a straight line, or on a freeway.


If the membership feels I am wasting your time, I will cease posting these long replies.  It doesn't earn me any money do do this and I don't lke typing with two fingers.  I'd rather be riding or playing guitar anyhow.

http://mckennaguitars.blogspot.com/
Don

[Shorts]

(sigh)  Why never mind?  I am  talking science. The point I am trying to make is based on the scientific concept of leverage.  It is also based on personal experience that confirmed statements I read in MCN and other MC magazines.

But then, if that seems like BS to the DRA membership, then I am wasting my time. 

Don

And my input is based on my reality and my bachelor's degree in Kinesiology/Health which included biomechanics, A&P and in general the study of the body's movements.  I'm not inept.  I'm not uneducated.  I know some things about skilled movements.  I was a decorated athlete before losing an arm and I'm stubborn headed after losing my arm.  Competition wise, I'll get my butt handed to me if I tried to play the same level I've played before for the fact I've lost some mechanical efficiency that God put into the human body based on symmetry, which includes the muscles powering the lever system of bones. 

My point is unless anyone has a bike that they can move, walk, handle and in general be independent with, that person is tied to any help.  I'm not saying that help does come along or can be asked for, but a rider isn't able to be alone with a bike.

I do sit and work on my bikes alone.  I am our house mechanic.  I can't get any bike up on it's center stand if I needed to.  Yes yes, say it, "technique and finesse"  I know.  It's true.  I'm not arguing with that because it is simple mechanics.  But I can't get a bike up on its center stand.  Why?  I have no left hand to grab on to the bike in order to finesse it.  Plain and simple. 

You said your input is based on personal experience, what do you think mine's based on?  Fairy tale?  When have you been a 5'3" 110lb female?  Until then, your experience is just that, yours.  Makes no difference if you're a skinny sack of bones wrapped in leather gear.  Your system of leverage, as a genetic male is miles ahead of the female system of leverage.  Your levers are bigger, as is anyone else with longer arms and legs than I.  Look at your wife, she's a tall woman.  She has better leverage than me even though we share the female geometry.  She can move things with less effort than I based on her leverage for the same amount of force applied (ie, muscles). 

That's simple anatomy and biomechanics my friend.

I'm not saying people cannot do amazing things.  I'm proof.  But amazing still has to work with science in order to live in reality.  Do you have a bike with a center stand?  Go out to your garage and put that bike on it's side stand.  Now put your left hand in your pocket.  Now attempt to put that bike on the center stand.  Come back and you tell me how it went.


The concept of leverage isn't BS to anyone.  So don't use it as a whole to fight your battle.  Leverage is only one piece of a huge puzzle that has to fit right for each rider.

[Lisa and Mike]

Well said. There is no such thing as a one size fits all motorcycle. I think it depends on a persons size and strength and the type of riding they plan to do. Before Lisa got her new power wheelchair they had her test a number of different models. Lisa is not very big so she  needed a chair that would fit her size and needs. A big chair for a 300lb person would be to large for her. She would be able to operate it but it would be too big and bulky for her, she would be sliding around in the seat all the time. She found a model that she was happy with and that is what she now has. That is way they make different sizes and models in the first place.